I made a spanish traduction of this page :). I don't think there'll be big problem about doing that. If any of you know a little of spanish, can help me to do the page :) Thank You.

The page is http://paishoes.pbwiki.com (The link is on the side bar :)

I've had an offer to set up with a wiki-pedia style wikim whi8ch sounds good to me. The person is even willing to donate a domain name!

By the way, I sent an e-mail to nick, asking the writers of avatar if they have any rules/advice. I'm not really expecting an answer back, since most likely they are pretty busy. (Now I'm kicking myself for not asking them in person at comicon! )

Si. No problemo.
My Spanish is terrible though so I'm afriad I can't offer any help. :P

Umm, I just changed all of the rules because the old ones were broken. If you don't like the new ones, feel free to change them back.

No problem. These rules look really good. The rules were really rough before. I like the anallogies of the four nations/elements.

Some programs (Specificly microsoft Word and Frontpage) add wonky tags that make things over stuffed and cause errors. Unfortunitly, when I tried getting rid of the tags it messed up the error. i'm in the process of fixing, but if you can do it first that'd be great. Be sure to check for tags before putting the rules on the other wiki. Thanks!

So, I got an e-mail about the board being incorrect. I took a look at a good screenshot of the board sent to me, and it looks like my board is correcion demenionaly. (The board is the rights size and the lines are in the right place.) THe only thing I can think of that's wrong is the circular edges, which is hard to actually get right. I'm uploading a kind of templete in the files section, if someone could work out the circular board to work right, i'd be appreciated. Thanks!

So my bro got the circlular edges to work. I reuploaded the file and put the image up on the main page.

In the clarification of movement, it states you can end a move before the maximum distance is reached. Would the White Lily and Chrysanthomum be able to move 1 then change direction or must it move 2 before it turns? This really only matters when another piece is blocking it from moving the 2 spaces first.

I'd also like to note that I'm trying to program version of the game. Hopefully I'll have a working copy very soon.

Regarding the Rock: if it is adjacent to 2 disharmonious flowers does it take on the properties of both? For example would a rock with a Jade and a Rhodo on 2 sides of it create 2 disharmonies, 1 with each of the existing flowers, but create a harmony with any other flower on the proper line.

I didn't think of that...One solution could be to have the rock take on the properties of only the last flower tile to be moved adjacent to it. As for the Lily and Chrysanthemum, I think it would be okay for the tile to move only one space before it turns if the player wants to.

One problem I have with that is remembering what the last tile was. In my opinion, a game should have "visual memory", meaning there's no memeory required. As long as there's no sort of runaway strategy of having it take on the quallities of the ajacent tiles, then that sounds alright to me.

uum where is the fourth condition for a victory? its says 4 but there are only three

Huh, weird. Good catch. I changed it to "three", though of course more can be added.

I'm not sure I understand the playing of pieces. What is meant by "red points" and "white points"? Intersections surrounded by that color? If so, then this contradicts the show since the white jade tiles are played on red points.

I'm still wondering if the relations for the pieces is too complex.

I printed peices and tried the game by myself and here is my impression.

* I do not like the complexity of both unique movement rules and harmonies for each piece that needs to be memorized. Chess isn't nearly this complex on the surface. I'm having a hard time devising a strategy because of this. The game should be fairly easy to pick up. Chess and Go are timeless games that aare simple on the surface, and I think Pai sho would follow a ancient timeless style of game. I believe pieces like the white dragon and white Jade should have only 1 ability. (agility which gives power, like the chess queen.) But then again, I'm not too crazy about capturing in this game except for maybe some rare occasions. (A rare occurance causing some hard to resolvce situation.)

* I do not like how first player to play white jade stops others. I think more ideal is 1 back from center, making it more fair for the player who goes second.

* What is the gameplay justification of having peices start at seperate corners? Couldn't it be just as easily that peices are played anywhere (as in go)?

* Is there a place in the show where a player moves a stationary piece on the board? (Besides cheating) If so, does it match these written rules?

* Tracking of who "owns" a dragon could be too annoying to keep track of. I recomend removing this.

* I think we should step back and think: What is this piece's role in the game? Is it intended for scoring, blocking, capturing etc.?

* I trimmed down the dragon to a more simple role. (Also only move in straight line since I think the piece was over powered otherwise.) I got rid of the keeping track of ownership thing as I feel it was too complex. (I left the white jade one since I'm not sure exactly what to do with that piece.)

* Obviously the old version is still there, and what I say is just an input at equal level with everyone else's. Feel free to change what I wrote, or even revert though I would like to get a consensus on a fun game, and personaly I think this game needs a little more work to be not too complex (surface complexity that is.) and fun.

Aren't the pieces placed in the squares, not the intersections?

If you look at the photos, most nations play on the intersections. It seems the air monks play a variation that plsy in the squares.

Orichal: Please stop linking to outside competing sites. I sent you an e-mail.

That site you linked to is taking content from this site and claiming a copyright they have no right to (it is intended ot be open for everyone under creative commons). I've been trying to contact the owner, but there is no e-mail and I have to wait to be approved for the forums. If you could have the owner of the site contact me, it'd be appreciated.

Update: I contacted the owner of the site, and he has responded back and I'm in the process of a resolution.

I have an idea about renaming Pai Sho tiles. I am not from Japan culture so I have no feel about which flower is harmonious or not with which flower. I can memorize it however this thing is intimidating to the new comers I tried to recruit to the game. How about changing flower names to colors. Everyone who took a basic painting class knows there are elemental colors and in between.(color triangle) I will draw them down

blue

purple green

red orange yellow

if you mix colors on corner with another one on corner, you get the inbetween color (red+blue --> purple)
Colors which are against each other are inharmonious
(blue XXX orange)
(purple XXX yellow)
(red XXX green)

For harmony
if it is a main color, it is harmonious with intermediate colors it contributes
if it is a intermediate color, it is harmonious with its constituent main colors

red -----purple
red -----orange
blue----purple
blue----green
yellow---orange
yellow --- green


For red and white flowers seperation, we can choose sth like hot(red, yellow, orange) or cold(blue, purple, green) colors

Any comments?

wiki messed color format. I am uploading picture to printstuff page

Hmm. Interesting idea. It would make it much simpler, though specific flowers are named in the show, so I'd imagine they wold be used in the game. Or maybe I'm not understanding what you mean. A system of harmony based on the flower's colors could certainly work and I'd like to see it explored more.

So it looks like both ehow and wikihow are using the pai sho rules. Unfortunately they didn't bother to give links back here (I added them in for both), but I'm hoping it will ultimately help to get more people to know about our site.

Resolution has been made with the other site, which now gives proper credit here and releases it under the creative commons license. If someone wants to put a link in on the links page there, i'm fine with that. (it's at www.freewebs.com/pai-sho)

Thanks Mace, sorry about all of the problems over the past week. Glad that all of the problems were worked out.

I'm not so sure about the 3 White Lotus tiles, because in the episode 'The Waterbending Scroll' (book 1, chapter 9) Iroh complains about losing his White Lotus tile. And he talks about it as if it is the only one.

In regards to the White Lotus piece I think there are different rules for how to play it than what you've shown. In the episode The Desert (Book 2, Chapter 11), Iroh plays the White Lotus as his first move and he places it in the middle of the board. This means that there is no waiting limit before playing a special (or at least the White Lotus) and that either a) the middle of the board can be considered your own territory or b) the white lotus can be placed anywhere on the board or anywhere along the cardinal axes.

Lastly, it appears that the board is placed so that the player sits between two red tips as shown in this image at this location:

http://avatar.wikia.com/wiki/File:Order_WL.png

A couple of things...
(1) I agree with Green that there must be only one white lotus piece, as shown by the script from the "water bending scroll"
http://www.avatarspiritmedia.net/transcripts.php?ep=109
(2) Also, if you read the script it would also indicate that the advantage of the white lotus piece must be minimul unless doing the specific technique Iroh employs...A technique which I think we can also assume is a winning one and not just a means of finding white lotus members.
(3) I also agree with Kevin that in the episode "the desert" the board is positioned differently than the rules here would suggest, But i would also like to point out that if you count the number of tiles in the picture and the number of tiles listed in the rules posted here, there are more tiles in the screenshot than alloted for in the rules.
(4) A screenshot from "The Waterbending Scroll" looks like it shows 3 players, though it could be only two with a spectator.
If I think of any other problems, I'll add them...otherwise the rules are very interesting, I'm glad this site is here.

Now I haven't paid very close attention to the scenes in the series where Pai Sho is shown, however with Uncle Iroh's interest in replacing his lost White Lotus piece, it suggests to me something akin to a CCG where each player has a set of tiles that they have chosen and selected for a particular strategy to employ. I also don't know much about oriental flower arranging, but I like the versatility and personality that this idea would add to the game. I also envisioned it being something similar to that old game Pogs where the winner of a match would win one or more of his opponents tiles. I also don't like the movement of the pieces - it makes it more shuffleboard than flower arranging.

I also agree with what Mace said earlier about these rules here being too complex. Of course CCG rules are even worse, but I think a simple pattern could be devised that would make the whole thing easier. IE the number of points on the tile (the number of petals on the flower?) represent the number of connections or harmonies that can be created with that tile. Color could also be a factor - such as using color theory (complimentary colors) to arrange harmonies. I also think that there should be a neutral ending - where both players succeed in harmonizing their tiles with their opponents ( I think it's the Serpent's Pass episode where Iroh does this in the desert bar) - this could be the strategy to which the White Lotus is key.

Anywho, these are my thoughts. Just thought I'd throw them out there to you guys instead of trying to make up my own competing interpretation of the game.

Oh! I forgot, I also think that the tiles should be related to the elements. As big of a role as the elements play in the game, certain tiles should fall into a category with an element. Whether this is used to create harmonies or disharmonies is I guess up to the strategy of the player.

The episode you're thinking of is The Desert, Puf. I agree with your ideas, especially about a CCG aspect of the game. When Iroh loses his Lotus tile, why did he think a store would sell him just the one? If you lose a pawn in a chess set, or any other piece, your chances of going into a store that will sell you just the one piece are slim, even if every chess set was the same size they probably wouldnt want to sell an incomplete set because a set consists of a very specific grouping of pieces; if they sold you a pawn their set would be incomplete. With a CCG there could be a number of tiles one must have, for example, 50, and as long as they are legal pieces and you dont have too many of one piece, you would have a complete set. That would explain how Iroh is able to buy just the one piece, because "decks" (tile sets) are customizable, but it would also explain the quote at the end of the desert episode, "Some unlucky soul has an incomplete Pai Sho set." He would be referring to the set as incomplete because there is a certain number required to be complete, but the specific piece is not necessary to all pai sho sets.

I also agree that in such a game the pieces would have to be self explanatory in some way because people wouldnt necessarily have to know how to use every piece if it wasnt in their set. By showing the rules visually on the piece, necessary knowledge before playing would be minimized to a set of rules governing how pieces work in general, with each piece having their rules on them in visual code. I like the idea of the petals, color, or even shape of the flowers governing that code. It would explain why the lotus tile could be underestimated; the combination of its color, shape, and number of petals could make it seem not so important based on the rules, so other people chose flashier flowers with "better moves" for their sets.

Hmm. There are some great ideas here. I'll just sum them up and comment here and there ^_^
1) The colour idea for harmonies is brilliant! The flowers and such images would remain the same, but the colours would change. Either the flowers could be coloured, or their backgrounds. It would certainly make things much easier to remember.
2) The series makes two referrances to the White Lotus tile. In one, Iroh loses his and needs to replace it, suggesting he only has one. In another episode someone says something to the effect of: "A White Lotus tile. Some poor soul has an incomplete pai sho set", again suggesting there is a single White Lotus tile.
3) CCG might work. There should not be a huge variety of tiles, but enough that people can customize their strategy. Of course, if CCG would prove too confusing, the sets should be the same, like Chess, but perhaps it would work.

A few things are unclear to me. You say the tiles are placed on intersections, yet many of the shots of the game show tiles in the squares. Some even show them in the squares and on the lines. I do not know which is correct, however it looks like we have to decide, since there are no clear rules. We must interpret what we can from the show and fill in the blanks ourselves. I would suggest landing on intersections, otherwise movement would be limited.

I'm going to make up a set for myself and give it a try. I will return with my thoughts and comments on the rules so far.

In the show it seems it varies by episodes, and though its not really in the show enough to extrapolate a pattern, I noticed something about the board and where the pieces go. In the first episode with Pai Sho, Iroh is playing with Fire Nation, and the board is rotated with the two opposite red points directed towards players, but with the pieces in squares. The next episode Pai Sho is in is "the Storm", in which two airbenders (Aang and Gyatso) play with the board rotated so that the players sit between points, but the pieces are still on squares. The next time you see pai sho it is with Iroh playing an Earth nation man (the Desert) and the board is rotated in the manner of the Air benders, but they put the pieces on the lines. That is the only instance of it on the lines as far as I know, but it is also the most significant episode with Pai Sho in it. My point is I concluded that the Fire Nation play with the pieces in the squares with the board in the rotation found on this page. The Air and Earth have the board rotated the other way, but Earth plays in the squares. Water might have the board rotated like Fire but on the lines like Earth.
An alternate scenario is that the makers of the show just didnt think about it a whole lot until it was important in "The Desert". The "white lotus gambit" requires the lotus tile in the middle, which is only possible if it is on a line, and thats when they changed it to on the lines. That doesnt explain why the board is rotated differently in the first episode it is in than in any other episode. A final note about that--I found that there were 260 usable squares and 249 usable intersections, so (if i'm right about the usable spaces) the board is effectively smaller if you play it on the intersections.
...(it wouldn't let me submit everything)...

...(continued)...
I dont know that I agree that there cant be a large variety of pieces in the CCG concept of the game, because the idea is that each piece has to be self explanatory, and you need a lot of pieces for customization. As long as there are simple rules to it that govern what kinds of pieces there can exist and how they work, I dont see why there couldnt be a bunch. For example, if there is a formula to it, you wouldn't have to recognize a white lily to know how the piece moves (6 petals and white, that means it moves like this...) Just my thoughts

Thats a good idea about the pieces mechanized...

I do think it would be more enojoyable if players could choose their pieces, and just need to have a set number of tiles per game. Let me get this strait, red flowers and can only go on red spots and white on white?

Yay! I just made my Pai sho baord.. I made it twice the size recommended because I wanted it to better match the ones on the tv show.