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Source Materials

Page history last edited by Osuji 13 years, 7 months ago

Pai Sho Source Materials

 

Purpose

  1. List all series references to Pai Sho (including screen shots, dialog, etc)
  2. List all Asian games that may have influenced the creation of Pai Sho
  3. List all Asian cultural references that may have influenced the creation of Pai Sho
  4. List all game mechanics that have been or might be incorporated into Pai Sho
  5. Systematically research, debate, evaluate all information in the above mentioned lists 

 

Discussion will be done within the comments section, and results will be added to the outline as they are reviewed.

 

DISCLAIMER (Please Read First)

Despite the sometimes strongly argued opinions voiced here, as well as the critical process of evaluating the individual merits of any given idea this page intends only to document for future reference all of the ideas and reasons for or against using them. ALL ideas here in are completely valid for the development of and use within any Pai Sho variant. There are no wrong ideas, only measured and quantified evaluations. Just because the body of evidence may favor the use of one idea over another does not disqualifiy it from use. Nor should anyone decide not to use an idea just because of what is seen here. 

 

The game design process involves choices. Choose the ones that work best for you. When developing your own variant try asking yourself these questions:

 

  1. Does the combination of ideas I'm using work as a system?
  2. Does the set of ideas I'm using create problems which I may need to design around?
  3. How concerned am I if what I'm using isn't a perfect match with what is seen in the series?

 

Though passionate debate may sometimes arise the Wiki Rules are still in full effect. Neither profanity nor inappropriate references will be tolerated. 


  

Series Sources VS Non Series Sources

The series footage is a primary source of information because is it all that has been published by the creators.

 

Series Source Only View 

Some would say that this entire body should be accepted as is. No part may be ignored, or changed. Any contradictions within the footage must be resolved within the context of the series only. Any additions to Pai Sho must also be based solely on materials within the series as a whole.

 

This view provides a precise context as a benchmark from which to measure the scope and scale of any divergence for the series source material, and respects the integrity of the original work.

 

Series and Asian Cultural Sources View 

Others would say that the creators based the series on Asian cultures, making all Asian cultures a primary source as well. Any Asian reference is fair game if it works well within a Pai Sho variant as a whole.

 

This view allows a greater range of source options and may inspire greater creativity in the design process.

 

Both views have merit and value. As such both should be carefully weighed and considered when creating any variant.


 

Series Sources

See the links page for links to other sites providing details about the series. Screen Shots are frequently drawn from http://www.avatarspiritmedia.net/. When this is the case images will be referenced with the following system. "Episode Name ### (DVD) Shot ###" where the first digit in the episode # is the season number and the following digits the episode followed by the screen shot number on Avatar Spirit Media. If the screen shot is taken from the DVD series of screen shots it should say "DVD shot" instead of just "Shot". Under no circumstances should any links go directly to subpages or specific images available on Avatar Spirit Media as the links will not work and their website specifically prohibits it. When screen shots are taken from other sources please attribute the source including the episode name and if it was from a DVD or TV

Pai Sho Episode Summarys

The Water Bending Scroll

The Board

    • Iroh is seen in an overhead shot seated with a port (the small red triangular areas near the edge of the board) directly in front of him.
    • But in close up shots the wide yellow area is directly in front of him and two ports are to his lower left and lower right.
    • Perspective shots show the lines on the board drawn incorrectly with the central intersection on the midpoint of a line and squares perpendicular to the diagonal line marking the border of the yellow areas.
    • 3 people are seen seated at the board

The Tiles

    • Tiles are seen stacked on the side of the board
    • Tiles are seen to be slid into position
    • A tile is moved across the board diagonally
    • Iroh moves a tile across the board 5 squares forward and 1 square to his left, a sort of long knight's
    • Tiles are seen placed in squares
    • 4 tiles designs are seen in close up detail
    • 11 tiles are seen in play and 6 stacked to the side of the board.
    • The Lotus tile is named but not called the "White" Lotus tile
    • Iroh says to Zuko "Most people think that a Lotus tile [is] insignificant, but it is essential for the unusual strategy that I employ". Which implies there is more than one Lotus tile, as well as a Lotus tile strategy.
    • Iroh adds " see, you like most people underestimate its value. Just give me 10 minutes to check the merchants at this port of call. hopefully they'll have the Lotus tile in stock, and I can get on with my life."
    • In the market Iroh says "I've checked all the shops on this pier. Not a Lotus tile in the entire marketplace."
    • Iroh later discovers that his missing lotus tile was in his sleeve the whole time and we see a close up detail of the tile.

Screen Shots at http://www.avatarspiritmedia.net/

"The Waterbending Scroll" (episode 109) DVD Shots (77-79,83-86,88-90,92-96,99) sixteen total

The Storm

Monk Gyatso and Aang are seen playing Pai Sho seated with a large yellow outer garden closest to them.

Tiles are placed on squares

This is a flash back so this version of Pai Sho is from 100 years earlier than the rest of the examples.

Lines on the board are not seen to line up correctly or accurately.

There is no positional continuity between moves and viewing angles, that is Aang moves a tile to a square but when we see the board again there is no tile in the expected position.

Tiles are slid into place on the board.

Screen Shots at http://www.avatarspiritmedia.net/  

"The Storm" (episode 112) DVD Shots (448-456,460-465,472,473) seventeen total

The Blue Spirit

Screen Shots at http://www.avatarspiritmedia.net/

"The Blue Spirit" (episode 113) DVD Shots (154-159,168-172,180-196)

The Desert

Screen Shots at http://www.avatarspiritmedia.net/

"The Desert" (episode 211) DVD Shots (341,342,349-372,376-378,383,394,417,665-669,671)

 

 

 

Series Culture and Concepts

          Influences on Avatar: The Last Airbender 

http://avatar.wikia.com/wiki/Influences_on_Avatar:_The_Last_Airbender 

Bending

The Elements

Carrying an element with you

People

Not every one bends

Benders do not have to live in the same nation as the element they can bend

Bending Animals

Mounts

Spirits

Merging

The Avatar

Elemental Balance

Balance between the spirit world and the physical world

Balance between the nations

Bending all Elements

The Four Nations

Each nation specializes in bending a single element.

Even though they are called the Four Nations there are only three left (barely).

The Air Nation was wiped out leaving only one survivor.

The Water Tribes were scattered and decimated

Pai Sho has been know in the Four Nations for at least 100 years and probably for much longer. (see "The Storm" episode 109) how far back into the 1000 plus Avatar lifetimes that goes, the series does not make clear.

 

Flower Names within the Series

 List of Flora 

Great link listing not only the flora but linking to images from both the series and the real world.

http://avatar.wikia.com/wiki/Flora

This list is taken from the link above. The reference links for each item in the list are taken from multiple sources including avatar.wikia. In all cases the links are intended to provide a resource to the shape of the flower for each item. Where no known flower image is available the link provides descriptive details instead.

 

Apple

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple

Ash Banana (Flower Shape Unknown)

http://avatar.wikia.com/wiki/Ash_Banana

Bacui Berries (Flower Shape Unknown)

http://avatar.wikia.com/wiki/Bacui_Berries

Banana Leaf

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banana

Banyan-Grove Tree

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banyan

Has no visible flower only the fig fruit.

http://indiasaijikiworlkhaiku.blogspot.com/2005/02/banyan-tree.html

Cabbage

http://im.knoxnews.com/MediaItemView.aspx?id=86216

Cactus

The Desert episode 211 DVD Shots (39, 161-164,167-170-177,182-185,188-193)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferocactus_wislizeni

Camellia sinensis

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camellia_sinensis

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Camellia_sinensis_flower.jpg

http://www.pfaf.org/user/Plant.aspx?LatinName=Camellia sinensis

Chile pepper

http://www.flickr.com/photos/--char--/3060847349/

http://www.botanical.com/botanical/mgmh/c/cayenn40.html

Fire Lily

http://avatar.wikia.com/wiki/Fire_Lily

Ginger Root

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ginger

Jasmine

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jasminum_sambac

Leechi Nuts

http://www.lycheesonline.com/FlowerTypes.cfm

Lemon

http://www.botanical.com/botanical/mgmh/l/lemon-16.html

Macahoni Berries (Flower Shape Unknown)

http://avatar.wikia.com/wiki/Macahoni_Berries

Mango

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mango

Moon Flower

http://avatar.wikia.com/wiki/Moon_Flower

Moon Peach (Flower Shape Unknown)

http://avatar.wikia.com/wiki/Moon_Peach

Panda Lily

http://avatar.wikia.com/wiki/Panda_Lily

Papaya

http://www.thefloweringgarden.com/papaya.htm

Plum Blossom

http://www.theflowerexpert.com/content/flowerbusiness/flowergrowersandsellers/national-native-popular-flowers-of-china

Purple Berries (Flower Shape Unknown)

http://avatar.wikia.com/wiki/Purple_Berries

Rice

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rice

Rose

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rose

Sandalwood

http://www.botanical.com/botanical/mgmh/s/sandal12.html

Sea Prune (Flower Shape Unknown)

http://avatar.wikia.com/wiki/Sea_Prune

Seaweed (Flower Shape Unknown)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edible_seaweed

Soy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soybean

Watermelon

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watermelon

White Dragon

http://avatar.wikia.com/wiki/White_Jade

White Jade

http://avatar.wikia.com/wiki/White_Jade

White Lotus

http://avatar.wikia.com/wiki/File:White_lotus_tornado.jpg

Ocean Kumquat (Flower Shape Unknown)

http://avatar.wikia.com/wiki/Ocean_Kumquat

 

Flower Names Unique to the Series

Fire Lily http://avatar.wikia.com/wiki/Fire_Lily

Moon Flower http://avatar.wikia.com/wiki/Moon_Flower
Panda Lily http://avatar.wikia.com/wiki/Panda_Lily

White Dragon http://avatar.wikia.com/wiki/White_Jade
White Jade http://avatar.wikia.com/wiki/White_Jade
White Lotus

 


 

Non Series Sources

Asian Game Resources

Board Based

Go (Wei Chi)

Shogi (Japanese Chess)

Xiang Xi (Chinese Chess)

Chaturanga (East Indian Chess)

Chaturaji (A four player Indian chess game)

Liubo http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liubo

 

This link is an excellent resource for details about chess variants including the Asian Chess variants mentioned here.

http://www.chessvariants.com/

 

Card Based

Hanafuda (Japanese flower card game)

The flowers of Hanafuda http://www.hanafuda.com/blog/2010/04/23/the-flowers-of-hanafuda

Mah Jong (Chinese card game)

Mah Jong uses tiles but is escentially a card game similar to Rummy

Mah Jong has 4 flower tiles

Mah Jong has only 3 suits rather than the usual 4 in western card games

Pai Gao (Asian card game)

Similar to Poker, 2 cards over 5

Si Se Pai (Asian Rummy based card game)

Literally "Four Color Cards" using XiangXi Chess pieces

http://www.ofb.net/~whuang/ugcs/gp/ssp/   

This link shows several Si Se Pai card designs

http://a_pollett.tripod.com/cards18.htm

 

Asian Cultural Influences

          Influences on Avatar: The Last Airbender (included here too because this link catalogs many of the Asian cultural influences) 

http://avatar.wikia.com/wiki/Influences_on_Avatar:_The_Last_Airbender

I Ching

Buddhism

White Lotus Symbolism

http://www.religionfacts.com/buddhism/symbols/lotus.htm

Mandalas

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dharmacakra

Non Violence

Balance and Harmony

Ikebana (Japanese flower arranging)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ikebana

The term Ikebana is not used in the series but is easier to say and write that flower arranging and the two terms are used here synonymously

Ikebana has many schools with different styles and philosophies but which all deal with the ideas of balance, harmony, and natural beauty, but then so does Buddhism.

Flower arranging is mentioned by Zuko in "The Desert" episode after they enter a flowershop.

Because Pai Sho uses flower tiles, and because flower arranging is known within the series it is natural to expect Pai Sho players may make a connection between the two, perhaps borrowing concepts from Ikebana to explain concepts within the game

There is no evidence to directly connect Ikebana to Pai Sho

 

Reasons to include Ikebana as a source

  1. Flower Arranging is mentioned in the series so Pai Sho players in the series could know about it as part of the series culture.
  2. Pai Sho uses flower tiles and there might be shared metaphors between the two.
  3. Ikebana deals with balance, harmony and natural beauty which are cultural influences within the series

 

Reasons not to include Ikebana as a source

 

  1. There is no direct connection between Pai Sho and Ikebana mentioned in the series.

   1a.   There are so many Ikebana schools it would be hard to decide on only one.

   1b.   Good and bad flower arranging is an aesthetic judgment rather than a yes/no rule needed for a board game.

    2.   Ikebana's style is perhaps more minimalist than decorative, but there is little "style" in the placement of tiles on a board so this is a weak objection at best.

    3.   The ideals of balance, harmony, and natural beauty are also a part of Buddhism so Ikebanna may be a redundant reference

 

Conclusion

It's a wash. The strongest reason not to include it is the lack of a direct connection to Pai Sho but as a valid cultural reference it fits nicely within the Asian theme of the show, as well as with the flower tiles used in the game.

 

Feng Shui

Free Masonry or other secret societies

Free Masonry is heavily influenced by eastern ideas (middle eastern I know but still not wholly Occidental) 

 

Non Asian Resources

Flower Shapes

A good reference for the general shapes of flowers

http://theseedsite.co.uk/flowershapes.html

For Flower Identification

http://healthyhomegardening.com/index.php

http://www.realtimerendering.com/flowers/flowers.html 

http://www.mywildflowers.com/index.asp

 

Real World Flower Names

See also The Flowers of Hanafuda in the above list of Asian Card Based Games for a link showing many Asian flowers used on Hanafuda cards.

Orchid (Lady Slipper)

http://paisho.pbworks.com/f/OrchidLadySlipper.jpg

Lotus

 

Magnolia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnolia_grandiflora

 


 

 

Pai Sho Game Mechanics

The Board

Squares or Intersections

Probably intersections but still being questioned based on earlier episodes

Reasons to play on intersections 

1. The Pai Sho board is based on a Go board which uses intersections for play.
2. The Pai Sho tiles are round similar to those used in Xiang Xi which also plays on intersections.
3. Other games that use a Go board (such as Pente AKA Go Bang) play on intersections
4. The series depicts both intersections and squares but the most recent version seen (in The Desert) also plays on intersections.


Reasons to play on squares

  1. Earlier depictions show squares being used, one from 100 years earlier, and another where both are seen used but both examples contain board shape errors and so are suspect.
  2. Other Asian games (Shogi & Chaturanga) play on squares but have no other elements in common with Pai Sho.

 

I think the weight of the evidence favors intersections over squares.

 

Squares and Intersections

Reasons to use both Squares and Intersections (at the same time) 

  1. It resolves the question of which to use in incorporating both systems
  2. At least one example of tiles appearing on both squares and intersections is seen in the series
  3. The novelty of the idea could take the game in new and interesting directions 
Reasons not to use Squares and Intersections (at the same time)
  1. The size of the tiles compared to the size of the squares in Pai Sho makes it impossible to place tiles directly adjacent to each other if one is on a square and one is on an intersection
  2. There are no Asian games that use both squares and intersection
  3. Using both squares (256) and intersections (261) effectively doubles the area of play (517) without adding additional tiles
  4. The series examples may only be artistic licence rather than valid game information
Possible solutions making use of both Intersections and Squares more practical
  1. Write a rule that says a tile on an intersection cannot touch a tile on a square and visa versa.
  2. Use smaller tiles so tiles will fit on both squares and intersections at the same time
  3. Use larger squares so tiles will fit on both at the same time
  4. Use both slightly larger squares and slightly smaller tiles so both will fit at the same time
  5. Increase the number of tiles and/or the scope of their influence to better balance the increased playing area with tiles on the board.
Conclusion
While there is little or questionable evidence within the series and none within Asian games, the idea is sound as a game concept if the rules or equipment are adjusted to compensate for the problems introduced. This interesting idea should be explored and further evaluated in the context of variants that use it, but the evidence suggests it is not a core concept.

 

Seating arrangement at the board

Players sit so that the intersection in the center of the board forms a "+" not an "x" though some episodes show the reverse. Which of the following images should be used for representing the board for notation where South is always at the top of the image? If ordered left to right A B C D the most frequent use seen is B and D.

 

What system of notation would Pai Sho have?

Grid Overlay System

This example uses a grid lettering and numbering the intersections. The Grid extends outside the playing area only to make locating an intersection simpler. The letter "I" is omitted to eliminate confusion with the number "1". The letters are always written as capitals to prevent the letter "L" being confused with the number "1".

 

The cardinal directions are added and color coded to make it easy to specify who is sitting where and in the case of different colored tiles make clear who is using which color. South is placed at the top of the board as an Asian cultural reference. Early Asian maps were drawn with South at the top of the page. The letters have been rotated so as to equalize the view of all the players, but should probably be oriented with with the rest of the text when used for printing board positions. The contrast of the print with the color coding could also be improved.

 

This system is not part of the series footage but is included here as a standard way to refer to any location on the board.

 

For those wishing to print this image on paper I will post several full scale images with various sized squares elsewhere at a later date.

 

This variation removes the grid lines outside of the playing area and moves the letters and numbers next to the circular border. The letters and numbers alternate in each quadrant to keep letters separate from numbers and improve legibility. The letters and numbers still refer to the same locations on the board. (K2) is still (K2) in both examples. This version shows the cardinal directions labeled more clearly and oriented for reading on the page.

Quadrant System

In this system the board is divided into quadrants and numbered/lettered from the center outward. If the quadrants are labeled as SE, SW, NW, NE an intersection is identified first by the quadrant and then by a {letter,number} coordinate pair (eg NEa3). If the quadrants are labeled with a single letter the x coordinate is given first, followed by the quadrant label, and finally the y coordinate (eg 3A3)

 

 

How should the lines on the board be arranged in relation to the colored regions of the board? 

I've seen the board drawn both ways and the shape translates easily for each. I have board examples for both but have yet to export them for posting here.

 

Gardens 

The idea for gardens was first postulated in a blog completely separate from this site (see Balance Pai Sho for the link to the blog and a description of that variant). In that variant gardens is introduced as name for all of the individual subdivisions of the Pai Sho board. A garden is any region of the Pai Sho board bounded by lines enclosing an area of uniform background color. So the entire Pai Sho board is divided into 12 gardens, 2 white gardens, 4 yellow gardens, 6 red gardens. Eight of the gardens touch the outside edge of the board. Four other gardens together make up a large square in the center of the board.

 

Reasons to use Gardens as part of Pai Sho Jargon

  1. Gardens are more specific than general terms like region and area
  2. Gardens fit well with flower tiles
  3. Gardens fit well with Ikebana influences
  4. Gardens fit well with Hanafuda influences
  5. Using Gardens instead of area or region does not change their nature. (" A rose by any other name" etc)
  6. Gardens are an intuitive concept that is easy to explain, understand, and remember
  7. Gardens fit well with ideas like natural harmony

 

Reasons not to use Gardens as part of Pai Sho Jargon

  1. The term Garden is never used in series dialogue to refer to Pai Sho
  2. ???

 

Tiles 

Number of tiles: At least 58

Known Tiles: 5, 4 flowers and 1 ship's wheel

Named Tiles:

The White Lotus (named in the series)

Wheel (Named for it's shape. looks like a ship's wheel)

Orchid (Named for it's similarity in shape to a Lady Slipper Orchid) aka White Dragon / White Jade

Magnolia (named for it's simlarity in shape to the Southern Magnolia)

Fifth tile (still looking for a close flower match) aka Lily / Iris 

How many players

2-4

What is in "The Pot" money or tiles

I'd like to find a good screen shot of the Blue Spirit episode where Iroh wins the pot so I can try and count them. Though I would still argue it is money since winning tiles would make a complete tile set impossible to maintain unless you always won.

What is behind the White Lotus? 

The color of the lotus has an important bearing on the symbolizm associated with it:

      • White Lotus (Skt. pundarika; Tib. pad ma dkar po): This represents the state of spiritual perfection and total mental purity (bodhi). It is associated with the White Tara and proclaims her perfect nature, a quality which is reinforced by the color of her body.
      • Pink Lotus(Skt. padma; Tib. pad ma dmar po): This the supreme lotus, generally reserved for the highest deity. Thus naturally it is associated with the Great Buddha himself.
      • Red Lotus(Skt. kamala; Tib: pad ma chu skyes): This signifies the original nature and purity of the heart (hrdya). It is the lotus of love, compassion, passion and all other qualities of the heart. It is the flower of Avalokiteshvara, the bodhisattva of compassion.
      • Blue Lotus(Skt. utpala; Tib. ut pa la): This is a symbol of the victory of the spirit over the senses, and signifies the wisdom of knowledge. Not surprisingly, it is the preferred flower of Manjushri, the bodhisattva of wisdom. 

 

Lotus Pattern on the board

There are likely many patterns that might be produced based on the rank of the White Lotus member just as there are many variations of the "secret" hand shake used by Free Masonry. Perhaps the number of petals or the placement of the odd tile could be the significant tell. Perhaps the way the tiles are held or placed also indicates the players rank within the society.

 

Real World White Lotus Society

The below link has some interesting details about the history of the white lotus society including connections to Chinese organized crime, a rebellion, and a religious sect.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Lotus

 

 





Comments (Show all 251)

Osuji said

at 6:40 pm on Aug 30, 2010

I understood your point. I was thinking in terms of a universe where not every one bends. In that context benders would likely be thought of differently than non benders regardless of gender. If that were the case gender would not be the determining factor, bending would be. And let the record show I do not favor a male dominated system. I do however recognize the functioning differences between the genders and understand how those may shape the behaviors of each, both toward themselves and each other. As we can see in the case of Sokka, he has not been exposed to this idea from childhood because most of the water tribe benders had been taken by the fire nation. There may also be another reason not to teach the women of the northern water tribe. Benders see battle. If bending is hereditary keeping the women from bending may have preserved the bloodline for future benders to be born. But I'm off on a tangent.

Harlan Nowick said

at 6:57 pm on Aug 30, 2010

good logic, especially about bending being hereditary, however it only really holds when their is a war. in times of peace, i think that schools of bending would become more common leading to more benders of both sexes. and in a world where female benders are common, i doubt the inequality of sexes would occur. if anything we would see a separation of classes into benders and non-benders, where benders are rulers and non-benders are peasants.
do we really know that most people aren't benders. at least in the air temples all people appear to benders. in the swamp. at least half of all shown people are benders. in the earth nation, there are large schools based around bending which would probably not occur if bending was rare. perhaps it's more of a personal choice whether or not you will bend.

Harlan Nowick said

at 6:47 pm on Aug 30, 2010

ok. i believe we've reached a wall in this argument. you think that having many flower tiles would be difficult from a practical standpoint, and i don't. at the very least, i think we can agree that any reasonably playable version is equal regardless of whether or not it has a large % of flower tiles or not. perhaps it would be best to end this argument train and move on to something else
P.S. looking forward to your game.

Osuji said

at 6:57 pm on Aug 30, 2010

Well, it would be based on the universe culture of Fire Nation dominance, and propaganda that fire is the best element. But again this is not a fully developed idea. And you will notice that I leave Pai Sho physically in tact by saying the other suits are just not used rather than altogether missing.

Osuji said

at 8:58 am on Aug 31, 2010

For Quadrant Notation (based on my experience with notation systems, and the popularity of their use) I recommend numbers for the y axis, letters for the x axis and Cardinal directions to indicate a quadrant or a side of an axis (NEa1, SEc5, SWd2, W4. This will make the quadrant system more intuitive because of it's compass based labels which are marked on the board, as well as be familiar to those using a single quadrant system. Using letters as well as numbers will also keep the two axis symbolically separate and help prevent human error from corrupting the record of a game. While I still feel it is more complex to explain and write it will function well enough that experienced players will have no difficulty in using it.

Osuji said

at 9:20 am on Aug 31, 2010

I agree about the war footing. I was thinking in particular of the effect of the last 100 years of war seen in the series, and not the earlier time periods because we really have not data on them. Of course outside of a war footing the bender percentage is likely to go up. We can't eliminate common human frailty even among benders, and that would include across gender lines. Women and Men both have their own gender based culture if you will, which would lead to a common or popular set of life choices, (especially in a pre-industrial society). Those common choices could easily lead to stereotypes and the repression of one gender in favor of another. We can't know any of this for certain, though it is an interesting set of questions about the development of Series History & Culture.

Osuji said

at 9:27 am on Aug 31, 2010

Tile Inventory
There are two points of view on this both have good potential for development and might even be be merged into a more a middle ground concept.

1. Mostly Flower tiles
2. A handful of flower tiles including those seen in the series but with more copies and a wider variety of tiles beyond just flowers.

Osuji said

at 9:54 am on Aug 31, 2010

Given so many flowers seen as tiles it would be nice if there were universal names for each. It would be even better if those names could be taken from the series. Would someone like to volunteer to review the all transcripts on the "avatar spirit media" site and then watch the episodes in which flower names appear to look for possible images? The idea would be to find a flower name and a picture of that flower so we can compare it to the flower tiles. At the same time someone else could review the real world flowers for suitable visual matches. I've already done some research which suggests the tile alternately called the White Jade or White Dragon most closely matches an Orchid similar in form to a "Lady Slipper". I'm not suggesting anyone abandon a variant name in favor of the outcome of this research. I'm just looking for a common name to use as part of the notation. For instance in Chess people use horse and castle to refer to the Knight and Rook respectively. But in the notation the symbols are always the same (Except in German they use "S" because Springer is the German name for Knight). But keeping to one language it would be nice to have one and only one name for notation use.

Harlan Nowick said

at 5:59 pm on Aug 31, 2010

ok. in my opinion, the tile known as the white dragon/ white jade (from the large tiles page) is probably named correctly. in the series, iroh can't tell the difference between the two (the flower seen in canon, book 2 episode 2, has white petals with red snake-tongue like markings on it. it also has a yellow bulb in the middle. it has a curving green stem. my explanation for the name is that the stem is meant to be a dragons neck with the flower being a dragons mouth. the red markings almost look like a dragon's fiery breath) and it leads to him getting poisoned. i personally prefer the name white dragon, but anything we can all agree on will work.
as to the flower known as the white jade/ iris (from the large tiles page), i wonder what you will think when i say i believe it's the moon flower (in canon, book 2 episode , it's seen as an entirely white flower with 3 prongs, the middle being the longest, coming out of the center of the flower. the petals are very crinkly, not the right word, with the petals having odd furls and waves in somewhat random places, not a good description, but still very pleasant looking). i think it looks much more like the tile than the white jade (seen in book 1 episode 2).

Osuji said

at 6:26 pm on Aug 31, 2010

Check out the links Yi Chen added. I haven't had time to review all the material yet but I would propose we first find /all/ the flower shapes within the series that may be a match and then see which if any are a great match. If we can find a great match in the series then we should use that but I'm not ruling out better matches within the real world either. Even if we don't find a match for that tile we should still think about creating flower tiles for all of the flowers known to exist in the Avatar Universe as a reference for new game versions.

I'm not sure the Moon Flower is a good match, a close look at the tile image shows it probably has as many as 6 to 8 petals and has more of a bell shape than a trumpet shape seen in the moon flower. When it comes to images seen with high contrast against a darker background it would be common to make all of them white or a lighter shade. I mention this so we don't ignore shapes that may better fit the tile image just because they have a different color. Most flowers come in lots of colors after all.

Harlan Nowick said

at 7:09 pm on Aug 31, 2010

the only other flower that seems to share the distinct 3 stamens is the fire lily (at least on that page as of aug. 31 that i could find). i believe that a distinctly red flower like that would never be shown as an entirely white flower. and to the multiple color theory, the "fire" lily is probably called that because it is almost always red. any thoughts

Yi Chen said

at 1:34 am on Sep 1, 2010

Yi Chen said

at 1:38 am on Sep 1, 2010

Harlan Nowick said

at 6:54 pm on Aug 31, 2010

the moon flower can be seen in book 2 episode 14, as to the other three known tiles, the lotus, wheel, rose/peony (from the large tiles page) all seem perfectly named. i don't think anyone wants to change the lotus tile, and it would be hard to assign a different name to the wheel (unless you get more specific like by saying a ship's wheel, or water wheel, etc., but as all share the same word "wheel" it's easy to understand)
the last flower is only slightly more difficult. the rose/peony is, i believe, a simple rose. i can't remember when but i think a rose is at least mentioned in the series. a rose is also a much more common flower, unlike the peony

Osuji said

at 10:40 am on Sep 1, 2010

No, I'm not suggesting we would change the name of the Lotus tile. I wish it looked more like a lotus flower but it can't be helped. I do have a question about the Lotus tile though. When Iroh heads the ship to port so he can buy a replacement he only calls it a Lotus tile... he doesn't call it a "White" Lotus tile. Does anyone ever refer to the Lotus tile as the "White" lotus tile or are we basing its name on the name of the society alone? In fact in the desert we suppose he has placed the lotus tile first but when we look at the screen shots we see him placing many different tiles on the center intersection, but the first seems to be what has been called the Rose / Peony. In fact the only reason I'm sure which one is the Lotus tile is based on the collars of the society.

Yi Chen said

at 4:26 pm on Sep 1, 2010

Aang calls it a white lotus tile in 'Sokka’s Master' http://www.avatarspiritmedia.net/transcripts.php?ep=304

Harlan Nowick said

at 4:55 pm on Sep 1, 2010

well, i suggest we rename to the white lotus because it's more specific and allows more freedom to introduce new tiles like the blue lotus, pink lotus, etc. i was hesitant to suggest this change in the past do to iroh always referring to it as a "lotus tile" not the white lotus tile. with this previously overlooked evidence, i believe we can safely rename it.

Osuji said

at 1:21 pm on Sep 2, 2010

Did anyone else notice there are 10 petals rather than 8 on the door lotus?

Harlan Nowick said

at 3:49 pm on Sep 2, 2010

i'd call it artist error. we've seen the white lotus tile alot, one lotus with 10 petals doesn't change all the other data

Osuji said

at 6:18 pm on Sep 2, 2010

True, I just thought it was interesting, perhaps having some secret meaning of its own within the order, or an indication of rank, or maybe a disguised version to hide in plain sight.

Osuji said

at 10:45 am on Sep 1, 2010

I don't think there is any other way to describe the Ships Wheel, except to shorten it to just "wheel"

Harlan Nowick said

at 4:06 pm on Sep 1, 2010

so, for the purposes of this site, the wheel tile and lotus tile are now the standard names. unless you disagree. i suggest you post it along with the notation systems on a separate page

Osuji said

at 1:11 pm on Sep 2, 2010

I have confirmed the transcript against the DVD. Yes the Wheel and the White Lotus will be the standard names for those tiles. There is still more work on the notation system to be resolved before we create the new page.

Harlan Nowick said

at 4:06 pm on Sep 2, 2010

perhaps white lotus would be better. there is evidence within the cannon for the name and it allows for other types/colors of lotus tile to be included as needed

Yi Chen said

at 5:49 am on Sep 16, 2010

The wheel looks very much like a Dharmacakra http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dharmacakra
I find it interesting that Chaturanga has a piece called Iratham (chariot) that I have seen represented as a wheel which moves like a rook in chess and that Chaturaji has a boat piece which I have seen represented as a ships wheel which moves like a bishop in chess.

Yi Chen said

at 1:36 am on Sep 1, 2010

Harlan Nowick said

at 7:25 am on Sep 1, 2010

thanks much for the links. whats your opinion on the names?

Osuji said

at 10:11 am on Aug 31, 2010

As a separate issue related to notation, standards in most games have the board always facing the same direction on the page. That way the reader always has the same frame of reference. I have already suggested south should be at the top as an Asian cultural reference. However the Pai Sho board can be seen with two seating arrangements. Based on what I've seen in the series the board is typically shown with a white garden on the lower right, or with a white garden to both the left and right sides. I suggest that these are the two variations to be used as the standard way to depict the board. See the set of 4 smaller line-less board images in the source materials above. Any discussion or opinion on this?

Osuji said

at 6:11 pm on Aug 31, 2010

Nice links Yi Chen! Great resources. Looks like one is still being expanded (on avatar influences) so we should continue to check in from time to time. The other flora resource will take some time to review but has a huge number of links. Thanks for the excellent additions!

Osuji said

at 9:57 am on Sep 1, 2010

I've taken all the flora names from the series list, and removed those that do not give enough information to establish what they are based on (like purple berries or ash bananas). Many of them are real world plant names or include real world plant names (like Lily). Since all plants have some sort of flowering stage I've been searching for good flower references for each plant. I'll be posting them as soon as I have the links compiled. I'm about halfway through the list at the moment.

Osuji said

at 1:08 pm on Sep 2, 2010

Still looking at the list of flora names, but in reviewing the tile called The Rose/Peony I've personally checked against photos of more than 2000 varieties of Rose (Botanica's Pocket Roses ISBN 978-3-8331-4471-4). In only one did the shape of the petal match and even then it has 5 petals not 6. All Rose related species have a 5 fold symmetry. So this cannot be a Rose. Due to the small large number of petals the real flower has and the shape of those petals I don't think a Peony is likely either but I've yet to check Peony varieties for a match.

Osuji said

at 1:57 pm on Sep 2, 2010

The closest thing I've found for the Rose/Peony is the Southern Magnolia. Check out the images and you will see it has both the right number of petals (3,6,12) and the right shape (Saucer/stelate) including the circle seen in the center. I’ve added a link above for comparison. Any discussion on this (magnolia) as a standard name for notation? Any other candidates that seem to fit better?

Harlan Nowick said

at 4:03 pm on Sep 2, 2010

i'd agree with it, with the exception that we just name it the magnolia. it's simpler and shorter and more likely to stick. i've also googled the plant and there appears to be an asian variation that is very similar, but once again, i think it should just be named the magnolia for ease of use.
Excellent find osuji.

Osuji said

at 6:10 pm on Sep 2, 2010

There is another close match but slightly different. Check out the Tulip Tree. I don't think it's as close as the Magnolia. And, yes I was thinking the same thing. I only included the "southern" part so it would be easier to google.

Harlan Nowick said

at 7:09 pm on Sep 2, 2010

the tulips nice but the magnolia fits better. my vote goes to magnolia

Harlan Nowick said

at 7:16 pm on Sep 2, 2010

my vote also goes to "white lotus" over "lotus"

Osuji said

at 9:31 am on Sep 13, 2010

Thanks for filling in some of the blanks in the resource list Yi Chen. I thought your Si Se Pai link was a good one so I added it back in. Not sure why you deleted it after adding it.

Yi Chen said

at 10:25 am on Sep 13, 2010

I removed the link because I could not get it to work.

Osuji said

at 9:37 am on Sep 13, 2010

I've been collecting images on which to base my tile designs and found the Boston Museum of Fine Arts website has a lot of Asian materials available online. http://www.mfa.org/

Java said

at 12:29 am on Nov 13, 2015

I would add information from Korra here, but I can't make it as good as this guys has

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